00:00:00: What I'm trying to do with many sort of like artworks is predict what could happen in the future.

00:00:09: Not necessarily, what i think should happened in the future but more just ,what i think could happen.

00:00:14: Says Mike Winklerman aka Beeple who we are welcoming today In our show Kunstpause and We're very happy To not only welcome you But also your animals too.

00:00:25: Neue Nationale You will tell us about that in a bit.

00:00:29: We see it on the news, we see our Chancellor Merz travelling to China and he's greeted by robots.

00:00:35: And all of us smile a bit.

00:00:38: but its funny because there is a future in reality with fascination for it also being afraid about it.

00:00:44: I just hope museum always has place where these things can start.

00:00:48: this conversation you understand.

00:00:51: maybe the pros or cons actually makes your think

00:00:55: says Lisa Botti, the curator of The Show Regular Animals currently on view at Neue Nationale Galerie.

00:01:01: And we are happy to meet both people as well as Lisa Bottii today in this program and As always We're focusing one artist from our collection In the beginning Of the show which is Namjoon Paik.

00:01:13: It's a family of robots From the eighties Which we Are not seeing in the Neue nationale galerie because it's too big and too high.

00:01:25: So another piece of Namjoon Paik has shown, it's from the Kunstmuseum Wolfsburg And its name is Andy Warhol Robot From Ninety-Ninety Four.

00:01:36: My first question to you Is When You Think About Namjoun Paik What Comes To Your Mind First?

00:01:43: TVs?

00:01:48: I actually don't know his work that well but it definitely to me felt like the first sort of person really kind of diving into this new medium, which was obviously extremely influential and knew at that time in mid-nineteen hundreds.

00:02:10: And so I definitely see a lot of parallels with what he did use the medium of our time, which is digital and internet to make work that speaks about this technology but also utilizes this technology to speak about everything happening in the world.

00:02:39: What's your feeling on Digital Art?

00:02:42: Where does it actually start?

00:02:44: because this label could be considered quite problematic as well.

00:02:48: Yeah I don't... I personally don't really consider a lot of his work, sort-of like digital art just because it's much more analog.

00:02:56: And what makes digital art very challenging as a medium is there are so many different distinct types of digital art that were made in very different ways and so...I think its' really hard.

00:03:14: the tools techniques that were used to make this regular animal piece are completely different from the stuff he was sort of like doing in the sixties and seventies.

00:03:28: And so I think, that's something which makes digital art challenging to curate... It is always changing too!

00:03:36: The tools we're available now just versus five years ago with all the AI stuff there's an insane amount more than possible.

00:03:47: Yeah,

00:03:48: we'll definitely speak a little bit about your trajectory and the different techniques in technologies you met throughout.

00:03:54: The last five years as he just put it.

00:03:56: but maybe to start with definitely there has been one defining moment at least for European audiences too encountering work which was obviously fantastic.

00:04:06: sale of the NFT called every days may be started.

00:04:11: How does this work function in terms of the art making that is involved, but also the technologies that are involved?

00:04:19: To me it feels a little bit like an artistic diary doesn't it.

00:04:24: Yeah so every day's piece was sort-of series of works.

00:04:29: I started in two thousand seven where i basically do picture everyday from start to finish and they're not kind Banked up where I'm just releasing them each day.

00:04:40: They're done each day.

00:04:41: today, I have to do a picture and post it online before midnight.

00:04:47: And so What happened is?

00:04:50: I started this in two thousand seven.

00:04:51: i'd been doing it for Sort of thirteen years or so and then this technology came along nfts which I only learned off A few months Before that big sale.

00:05:03: um and I had Just hitten gotten to five thousand days of every day, maybe like two weeks before Christie's sort-of contacted me with this opportunity.

00:05:18: So the timing was another huge coincidence and so The Piece That Sold At Christie is a compilation Of the first five thousand Days of Every Day all put into one image

00:05:33: in way you've been working on at work.

00:05:36: Only later, the right technology was finding you in order to actually finish the work?

00:05:42: A hundred percent.

00:05:45: That work was actually started in two thousand seven and it wasn't completed until twenty-twenty one when that NFT was minted.

00:05:56: I didn't.

00:05:56: this was also not like a technology that i kind of saw coming.

00:06:00: Like you know there's certain technologies where it's, oh well in the future we'll have blah blah blah like That Was Not This.

00:06:06: but I think The idea and I Think The Idea That People Struggle With It Is Understandable Because This is Very New.

00:06:14: But Its The Idea You Could Have Ownership Over A Virtual Object And Thats A New Way Of Looking At Computers that we just didn't have before.

00:06:27: a file was just a copy of the copy-of-a-copy And so I think it is a new concept, but I think It's something you'll see much more in The future and something that You know my kids will grow up sort of like understanding Like of course yeah.

00:06:43: You can own virtual things In the same way that we take for granted say baseball cards or things like that.

00:06:49: At one point, baseball cards were just little pieces of paper and like the idea that it contains this sort of like accomplishments in sports.

00:06:59: Of that person.

00:07:01: That's a social consensus.

00:07:02: that had to happen And I think that will definitely happened around NFTs.

00:07:08: It is not

00:07:08: instant It's interesting.

00:07:10: you're talking about social consensus, because back then for Namjoon Paik it is very certain and we also know that his art got rejected in the first place by a lot of people.

00:07:21: or as being part of museums collections.

00:07:26: Now, obviously this is a new challenge for your own trajectory as an artist as well and how much mix of curiosity versus rejection do you actually witness when it comes to the reactions from the public to your work?

00:07:43: How do you deal with

00:07:44: that?".

00:07:45: Yeah I would say... That's good question!

00:07:49: Definitely a mix of those two things.

00:07:51: There's people who are like very curious and trying to understand, And then there're people were like no that not art which I think is Very odd To me because we all agreed Like myself included A hundred years ago That you could just literally Take any object You can take toilet turn it over and be like, this is art.

00:08:20: But me sitting down at a computer making pictures that I expressly consider to be art people being like no, that's not art It's like.

00:08:31: nah okay That does not make sense And so i think its going to take A bit of time.

00:08:38: but if you look At the world Its Not getting less digital It's getting more digital.

00:08:44: and so I have no doubt over time that this Medium will be seen just like any other medium sculpture painting photography Digital art, and I think it makes sense to have it Be its own sort of like category of Art because it really defines the visual language Of everything that we see today.

00:09:08: when you see something a movie, an advertisement.

00:09:12: A website...a video game Those were made by digital artists.

00:09:19: those weren't made by painters.

00:09:21: they weren't Made By a person sitting at a canvas or sculptor.

00:09:24: They Were made by a Person Sitting in a computer.

00:09:27: and so I think it makes sense that this is a medium In itself That people will see as that you know in the future.

00:09:39: You're combining programming, AR and robotics in your work.

00:09:44: Some of the latest technologies The whole world talks about.

00:09:48: And what was the latest technology besides NFT production that you are curious about?

00:09:56: What is now interesting for you besides NFTs?

00:10:00: So to me, I think the possibilities that AI presents and this regular animals work would not have been possible without that on a both programming level.

00:10:12: And then also the way the dogs take pictures in sort of like translate them with AI into the worldview of each Of the different types of animals.

00:10:28: A lot of excitement for what's possible and also to be honest a little bit of fear in how fast it is moving, And how disruptive I think its going to be.

00:10:42: But the things that have changed just in last year or so with AI on many fronts from image making To video-making to programming are absolutely insane.

00:10:59: You just mentioned the title of the work that is actually now shown in Berlin for upcoming two weeks, Regular Animals and already before.

00:11:08: your work has often been very political.

00:11:11: tell me about how political this title Of The Animals Actually Is when I look at the faces these

00:11:19: beasts.

00:11:21: So the title isn't really political.

00:11:25: it actually points to a future in which this is regular.

00:11:31: And so what I'm trying to do with many sort of like artworks, Is predict What could happen in the future?

00:11:43: Not necessarily what i think should happen In The Future but more just what i Think Could Happen.

00:11:49: and Right now these dogs seem very weird.

00:11:53: they see you look at them You're Like what the hell was that.

00:11:56: I've never seen That before.

00:11:58: But in the future, I believe they will actually be very regular that you'll just see things like then.

00:12:04: It's just... You could just see it walking down the street and its' just

00:12:07: walkin',

00:12:09: Its own thing.

00:12:11: And so That why is called Regular Animals.

00:12:15: The specific choice of the heads Of the animals Is a bit more bit more on the commentary side and a bit more of sort-of somewhat political side, but more so trying to explore our relationship with kind of like technology as society.

00:12:36: Tell us who do we actually see here?

00:12:38: And two these beasts did you personally meet because I'm pretty sure

00:12:47: that some myself, Elon and Mark Zuckerberg.

00:13:02: The idea behind that is basically how the animals work are.

00:13:08: they're sort of moving around in this kind of like pin autonomously And their trying not to bump into each other as humans do.

00:13:18: They taking pictures then they are pooping out prints and They Poop out the prints that they The pictures that they take in the style of each person.

00:13:35: so the Warhol dog prints out poops out a Print, it looks like a war haul sort of like screen print.

00:13:43: The Picasso one Looks Like A Cube is Sort Of Like Picture And It's Using AI to Reimagine the picture that it takes in kind of the style of that person.

00:13:53: And, The idea behind is that In the past our view of world was influenced by artists...the way Picasso painted changed how we saw the World..The Way Warhol talked about consumer culture and pop culture changed How We Saw The World.

00:14:12: Now Our View Of The World Is Largely influenced by tech billionaires like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg who control algorithms that decide what we see, And What We Don't See.

00:14:30: through their lens, and so that's the idea I wanted to sort of like explore with this.

00:14:35: So what are Elon and Mark pooping out?

00:14:39: So they're pooping-out... Elon is pooping a picture that kind it takes in makes sorta like a schematic Of The World And looks at It In A Very Like A Blueprint.

00:14:51: Um..and so it draws little diagrams Makes Little Charts & Stuff And so its very kinda cold analytic sort of like view of the world.

00:15:01: The Zuckerberg dog reimagines the world kind in this metaverse view that it looks a sort-of-tron type, virtual future.

00:15:16: Did you meet Mark and Elon?

00:15:18: I've met Elon a few times...I never met Mark.

00:15:22: How did he connect to what your doing with the art world?

00:15:25: is there sensitivity within his brain for the arts.

00:15:33: That's a good question, he didn't really... He seems into art.

00:15:41: I don't know that he seems in to sort of like traditional art that much or sort-of like

00:15:48: Da Vinci type?

00:15:49: Yeah it is definitely.

00:15:56: He seems much more focused on building things than like collecting, I don't think he really collects art.

00:16:02: And from Elon Musk we jump straight back into Neue Nationale Galerie and talk about the preparation of this.

00:16:10: exhibition invited Lisa Potti, curator for the Beeper Exhibition to our podcast.

00:16:18: so what was the reason you invited people to Neue Nationale Galerie?

00:16:24: Museums have the role where society can reflect on itself, and currently I feel that major issues is what everybody has in their minds.

00:16:33: What's on the headlines of newspapers?

00:16:35: Is technology an artificial

00:16:37: intelligence?".

00:16:39: And if you look at the twentieth century actually this we are currently on view Fritz Lang Metropolis whereas there is a robot from nineteen twenty three.

00:16:49: The next step was, in my mind of course also Namjoon Paik who is our collection.

00:16:54: Who looked into technology with the curiosity that seemed very similar to other people.

00:17:00: When did you first come across People's work and what were your first impressions?

00:17:06: I guess this was like most when he had his big auction sale at Christie's for sixty nine million US dollars.

00:17:15: How can I not know an artist who has a sale on Christie's for sixty nine million years?

00:17:20: I mean, this was at that time the third most expensive artwork sold by living artists.

00:17:25: So it's incredible.

00:17:26: so Caroline Christoph Bakage of The Curator you all know from documenter and Castello Di Rivoli she asked the same question.

00:17:36: then She actually started a YouTube series where she interviews him four hours And i can really recommend to everybody because It gives you answers to all these questions.

00:17:45: What is blockchain, what is NFT?

00:17:47: What does actually digital art and he is curious about her world in.

00:17:51: she's curious about his word on this matches really inspiring.

00:17:55: And do we have an answer to the question how did they work out that a known artist was selling an NFT for such huge price?

00:18:06: He gives the answer that of course digital art has been there for a long time, but it was actually difficult to sell.

00:18:12: at JPEG as you know It doesn't have.

00:18:14: really There's no framing to it.

00:18:16: So he could just copy it.

00:18:18: so nft is actually.

00:18:19: he explains it always very well.

00:18:20: It's like a birth certificate.

00:18:23: But once there was this NFT, which is a new invention you could actually sell it and then own.

00:18:30: So that's the mega change for him.

00:18:32: He wasn't really into this whole blockchain NFT And he still has not been doing these everyday things in computer art or digital arts.

00:18:39: since now Since two thousand seven years ago so long time

00:18:45: People's images are often very direct Often based on internet culture.

00:18:51: How do you approach that in the exhibition at Neue Nationale Galerie?

00:19:21: why it's so relevant to ask the question of, um... The influence of artificial intelligence in our society today.

00:19:30: And actually alongside your work you are showing a work by Andy Warhol and a robot by Namjoon Paik portraying Andy Warhole.

00:19:37: So that is perfect little curation which he did there.

00:19:41: Yes we were wondering where should include people because its such an magnetic piece, and we actually love the idea of The Lobby because The Lobbie Of The Nine Nights On Naglory is where people come.

00:19:53: It's for free!

00:19:54: And the most prominent works are standing there by Andy Warhol, Hammer & Sickle... ...and then we loaned this beautiful Namjoon Pike which depicts Andy Warholtz.

00:20:04: So Namjoun Pike did a series of robots since nineteen sixty-four.. ..and he decided to do these families in one family with scientists and one was also artists.

00:20:16: And this robot by Namjoon Paikot, Andy Walroboth it is has the billow box at The Brillo Box that has the Campbell soup cans.

00:20:25: It had all these images from Marilyn Monroe.

00:20:29: so its very perfect match to this piece.

00:20:32: because of course visually they are a perfect match but also content wise Because really about how did TV actually change in the twentieth century?

00:20:40: Circulation Of Images.

00:20:43: And I think it's for the first time in history of this building that there will be animals downstairs pooping.

00:20:49: What will the audience, or how would they be able to encounter these animals and actually play with them?

00:20:59: So the animals are in their pen which like you could go into a zoo where you also see this thing.

00:21:05: You cannot touch them but understand how they think.

00:21:11: So when you say poo, it means that actually take photos of the surroundings and then artificial intelligence will optimize this image.

00:21:39: general data protection regulation called DSGFO.

00:21:44: Was it difficult to follow these rules?

00:21:47: or are there rules that we have to follow here in the exhibition and still make their experience engaging?

00:21:56: It's the same experience as you would have in the States, but indeed there is a different law for European Union in terms of data protection which we of course oblige.

00:22:08: these images were actually then coined to an NFT, and here this is not possible.

00:22:14: So they would go... These images the robots take will stay up to twelve hours within the system of this cloud than there will be deleted.

00:22:23: Alright okay.

00:22:25: And do you think people's work speaks to a different audience that common visitors of Gallery Weekend?

00:22:34: Or let's say the visitors who just visited Brancusi upstairs.

00:22:37: Maybe

00:22:38: like this?

00:22:39: Yeah, we hope... I mean of course every museum wants to diversify their audience and it is definitely very important for us.

00:22:45: And also with performance or music.

00:22:48: We're doing all that time now where will start a program for school classes soon.

00:22:53: But i think these works are a bit.

00:22:58: You know, sometimes a joke can be also quite painful in the end.

00:23:01: So first you laugh and it's a spectacle but then there is something happening... ...and yet when we really think about these things that actually entail this work?

00:23:11: And this why has so much power I think!

00:23:14: I definitely agree.

00:23:15: We've just seen these animals.... The fact their heads are slightly bigger than human head creating a feeling of uncanniness.

00:23:23: And I'm glad you mentioned the Fritz Lang movie, which are also showing... ...which has that same effect on uncanneness.

00:23:29: so i think there is something interesting going on these days at National Gallery to basically look both into history as well as in the future and how robots machines technology and have been for a long time around in interacting with us.

00:23:47: Yeah, I mean even if you think of Ehter Hoffmann the Sandman it was earlier or Olympia like the nineteenth century.

00:23:53: And there's also this question that comes.

00:23:56: he just told me people always say but your not an artist.

00:23:59: He gets these feedbacks alot because we are on traditional art world.

00:24:05: We had prejudice about digital art What I like also, because you just mentioned our museum when we visited the Bankusia exhibition.

00:24:14: You see newspaper articles saying this is not art it's intelligent but isn't art and its a newspaper article from nineteen twenty-eight.

00:24:23: so i'm sure that there will be another medium to us.

00:24:28: Yeah,

00:24:30: and it's interesting you're relating back to Brancusi because even there I see certain sculptures that are again reminding me of the Fritz Lang universes.

00:24:39: That actually if he was not part of a futuristic movement then certainly in their reduction had a futuristic touch

00:24:48: on them

00:24:49: or avant-gardeistic.

00:24:51: so maybe we were just facing another avant-gardist with people aren't

00:24:54: we?

00:24:55: Yes, but also a bit of a dystopia.

00:24:57: I feel that's why it matters so much to us this topic because there is the biggest fear right now as artificial intelligence Because if you remember the discussion on which AI to use for the invasion of Iran war with anthropic or There are laws against Sephora because they're targeting teenager who should use more cosmetics.

00:25:22: So it's affecting us in a bigger scale, in terms of politics economics but also now our daily lives with our children who used so much social media and the algorithms that create new realities.

00:25:34: What do you hope visitors take with them after seeing the exhibition?

00:25:39: Yeah I hope people will start more reflecting these issues because We see it on the news, we see our Chancellor Merz traveling to China and he's greeted by robots.

00:25:51: And all of us smile a bit.

00:25:53: but its funny because there is definitely an employee coming up with this fascination for it as well.

00:26:04: being afraid about that.

00:26:05: I just hope museum always has place where these things.

00:26:08: then Start this conversation and you can just see understand maybe the pros and cons, but actually it makes your think about.

00:26:18: What is your favorite museum?

00:26:21: My favorite Museum would be Ophizia in Florence.

00:26:25: I've been there last week And i was so impressed that they have six point six million visitors a year.

00:26:33: They're most iconic collection.

00:26:35: It's simply every

00:26:36: time stunning!

00:26:38: I'm gonna go ahead say

00:26:40: MoMA Do you have a favorite place?

00:26:42: Not really.

00:26:46: My favourite place is actually the terrace of Neunerzernagel, because it's having view from the most beautiful museum in Berlin and maybe around the world And there are also people passing by with buses, cars or people You can have coffee in the sun.

00:27:02: Are your currently learning something new?

00:27:04: With every exhibition I say that i would learn something

00:27:09: new very hard to keep up because it is changing so fast.

00:27:15: So definitely AI

00:27:16: stuff.

00:27:18: Have you recently experienced a failure and what did you take away from?

00:27:23: I

00:27:24: experience failure quite often with the every days.

00:27:29: It feels like constant failure, its tiny things in terms of just trying incrementally improve each day In

00:27:40: how i make pictures.

00:27:42: My biggest failure the recent days was to take my bicycle and wear a beautiful Isemiaka

00:27:50: pants.

00:27:51: What are you currently curious about?

00:27:56: I'm very curious about The Press, and the audience for this exhibition!

00:28:01: Good luck with that... ...and all the best.

00:28:03: thank you so much for being on our show tonight.

00:28:06: Thank You So Much For Having Us!